Sub groups overkill

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wavemonk
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Sub groups overkill

Post by wavemonk » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:24 am

One of the primary reasons for me to not use Auria Pro very much is the fact, that a large proportion of the (scarce) screen real estate is permanently taken up by 8 sub groups. Apart from the argument that # of subs should be user configurable in a premium priced product, I also think it is an indication that the typical use case is not very well understood. Most projects done on iPads are sofa productions, hence Cubasis’ huge success. I do not have the statistics, but my guess is that very few iPad based productions need anything near 8 sub groups. Last time I brought this up, a forum resident told me the “very good” reason for having 8 subs taking up most of the screen is that “most” Auria users have projects needing even more than 8 subs. Well so more the reason for making it user configurable, but I am not buying it. I will even bet that many users do not really know what to do with them. Insisting on exposing Auria’s relative architectural complexity is maybe understandable, but counter productive imo.

I have been doing film and television sound post for a living using large (Neve, SSL, Amek/SC) mixing consoles producing full Dolby THX with a lot of nitty gritty mixing of many simultaneous sound sources, and I do not recall using 8 sub groups for anything. It may have happened but it was definitely not the typical mode. Things were done per scene for production reasons and to not lose overview. TC locked and with full automation and recall it worked very well. Actually I only recall having 4 or maybe 6 dedicated subs, but we always just routed and designated ordinary channels as subs to sit next to the group of strips being included. Subs were mainly used to create various spatial configurations, locations, to place and move dialogue and sound around in. Dialogue would be either mono or m/s with some room, pure ambients stereo or m/s, and geräusch mostly mono.

Anyway,it is a shame really, that there is not even the option to just hide the dead weight. I really like Auria Pro, it sounds good, and I keep coming back to it only to be annoyed. Now I am sure that some users on this forum will feel a strong urge to tell me about their projects needing way more than 8 sub groups. That is fine, and I do not doubt it at all, but I still believe my “analysis” or what to call it to be correct. :)

WM

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Anthony Alves
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by Anthony Alves » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:48 am

I’m sure you don’t think you can write this big of a beef without some feedback. First most AuriaPro users are not couch producers no more than a laptop user and even then if your a serious music producer you will have a dedicated room with acoustics, an audio interface, a set of monitors ect. You state you mixed on a pro console, well Auria is based on a pro console and all pro consoles have 8 or more subgroups. Here’s the thing, anything static that takes up screen space would be a problem but because you simply swipe it away and it’s gone as your real estate is only what your looking at, at that moment. I’m currently mixing a 105 track song on my iPad Pro for an artist in Australia and with this many tracks the 8 subs take up little space as I scroll towards the master bus. ( Video out this weekend on this mix ). Here’s a news flash, most AuriaPro users are older and many have been in the music industry for years mixing on traditional mixers much like you so yes they really do know what subgroups are. Your statements on this post only help to perpetuate the false notion that people who have chosen the iPad as an alternative recording device are nothing but beginners playing games on a couch. Surely you can see that you too would be included in this catagory if that were true.
Lastley Cubasis is not a very popular pro mixing app but does work pretty good for couch producers.
Cheers and good luck
Last edited by Anthony Alves on Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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richardyot
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by richardyot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:44 am

I typically use between 4 and 6 subs per project (one for drums, one for bass, one for all the other musical elements, one for the lead vocal and double, and one for harmonies and maybe an extra one for backing vocals). It's true that many users don't use them at all though, so it would be nice to have the option to hide them from the UI.

Personally I find them super-useful for balancing a mix without having to move 50 odd faders.

amahdigital
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by amahdigital » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:48 am

I would agree with Anthony and Richardyot on that point and I myself find using the subgroups as standard and key to my mixing workflow in all my projects to keep things nicely organised .for example all 8 subgroups correspond to my faderport8 controller which is very similar to how I would mix in a large pro studio with mix automation adjustment on the subs.

supanorton
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by supanorton » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:49 am

I don’t think I’ve ever used 8, but I certainly use 4-6 on just about all my projects in much the same way as @richardyot describes. When I think about my mixes, subgroups are part of that thinking. I don’t find the sub groups annoying.

theconnactic
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by theconnactic » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:08 am

Well trolled.

wigglelights
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by wigglelights » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:22 am

WM
With honest respect to your background and views on sub groups....

I’ve been involved in live corporate events for more than 30 years, and have worked as a production manager for 15 of those. I’ve had the pleasure of having world class sound reinforcement engineers on 100s of events.
And there’s not a one who hasn’t made extensive use of matrices/submixes/subgroups, usually every one available on the console. Whether it’s a cut and dry presentation with 30 inputs, or a large scale (entertainment involved) session with 80+, all these engineers completely rely on getting the bussing straight via sub groups. Add a broadcast or satelite truck and it becomes all the more critical.
As we often deal with national acts on these, these engineers always use subs to manage channels. Whether during soundcheck, or soloing to NFMs or headphones during the show it allows them to zoom in on the components of the mix, be it the 12 channels of drums, 6 channels of backing vocals, 8 channels of keys, etc etc.
And in my semi pro days of studio tracking, those recording engineers used subs the same way in mix down - easily isoing the drums, rythym guitars and so on.

So here’s my point -
Whole the basic concepts are the same - allowing the audience to get the best experience - the requirements of engineers in different aspects of delivering their best are different. The guy doing the Eagles for an arena needs one thing, the guy in a ballroom with 24 lavs and playbacks needs another, the guy recording/mixing Snarky Puppy with 48 channels of live tracks another and the guy in the broadcast truck something else. All equally valid. All needing their own console/feature set that supports the flexibility to get their job done.

Again, with respect, in all my years of live events there has never been a Neve console, and I won’t pretend to speak to your requirements.
But I will say this - I do see see tons of products designed for live shows. Yamaha wants to be the one choice, they have their way of routing, Soundcraft another (and this is an all department thing, GrandMA or WholeHog for lighting, E2 or D3 for screen switching) - at some point the man I hire will request a specific manufacturers part based on what he is most comfortable with, and each man will be equally adamant about needing that feature set.

So in the case of Auria (which I’m sure is the case with any software or hardware manufacturer), I believe they have to choose their widest base of users/purchasers. That’s just how business is supposed to work. And from following Auria since it’s humble, audio tracking only beginnings, I believe Rim was modeling his platform to meet the needs of a tracking engineer based on whatever his conclusions of what those needs are. I believe this due to the early marketing statements of supporting of 48 live input tracks - a statement that clearly is geared towards a recording engineer and not a guy sitting on a couch (as is the distinguished Mr Alves). It may be in reality he missed what the majority of his market would be, the couch guys, and I believe he’s done his best to respond to that by adding midi and virtual instruments, IAA and AU - regardless of what the original intent/user base was when he built it.

And again, with respect to your views - I do take offense (and absolutely not just with you, but a general set of frequently appearing statements in iOS forums) is the “just do this” or “it should be easy” presumptions. I know I know, and I have to believe that with your background in film and tv, that clients so often demand results based on features seemingly easy to them, but beyond the capabilities of what the platform was designed to do, right? If it was easy, as I’ve seen it asked to hide subgroups than Rim would have done it. I have to believe that based on what I’ve followed with Auria over the years, that the subgroups are both a fundamental component of what the platform was designed to do for its largest target audience/user base.
Nothing is easy my friend.

Pardon the personal rant - when we rent a 65000$ console I presume every right to demand Barco gives me a way to roll back the latest software. For 35$ to a (what we once called a shareware) developer - come on, show some respect.

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mtingle
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Re: Sub groups overkill

Post by mtingle » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:42 am

I think the 8 subs are hard coded into the core of Auria and as such are baked into its DNA. It would be nice to have them configurable but it would mean breaking backwards compatibility with older Auria projects. Maybe Rim will consider this one day in a big 3.0 update, who knows.

Personally 8 subs is never enough! I work exclusively with creating songs, some of them quite complex and would happily use 10-20 buses or subs groups in arranging, its incredibly useful.

As Auria grows the number of professionals using the app will demand more and more powerful features.

For those not needing 8 subs it would be nice to be able to hide them for sure. It would be nice to be able to hide normal tracks too that have audio on but not currently being used in the mix (ie alternate vocal takes etc).

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