MS matris

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Fridberg
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MS matris

Post by Fridberg » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:06 am

Hi,

I have a problem to figure out.
I do classical recordings and most of the time with my 4 channel microphone (Pearl DS 60). I have a RME interface and it works great with my iPad and Auria. The problem is to get a MS matris. For me MS recording is great but I can't figure out how to make a MS matris in Auria. Until now I have used ProTools and a MacBook Pro for the recordings and in ProTools it's rather simple to do a MS matris. It's more tricky when you have 4 channels but I do like this in ProTools:

Channel 1 and 2 from the microphone is the mid signal. No problem there. I can in post decide if I want cardioid, omni, figure eight or something in between. Very handy.

Channel 3 and 4 is the side signal. To get a figure eight from two channels I have to phase shift channel 4. Then I send channel 3 and 4 via a bus (bus 1 on both) to 2 new aux channels. We can call them channel 5 and 6. Input for channel 5 and 6 is bus 1. Channel 5 I pan hard left and channel 6 hard right AND a phase shift. Voila! Now I have a MS matris and can listen to that when I record.

How do I do it in Auria Pro?

Regards
Pär
Stockholm
Sweden

Rim
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Re: MS matris

Post by Rim » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:06 am

Since Auria Pro supports both busses and phase shifting, I would think this configuration would be possible. Have you tried this in Auria Pro?

Rim

Fridberg
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Re: MS matris

Post by Fridberg » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:20 am

Hi,

Yes, I've tried. The side channels, channel 3 and 4 are the problem. I can make a setup BUT I don't want to listen to channel 3 and 4, only 5 and 6. Is it possible to send the signals from channel 3 and 4 before the faders? I do that in ProTools.

To be clear, the only channels I will listen to are 1,2 and 5,6. Channels 3 and 4 are only channels to make ONE FIGURE EIGHT MICROPHONE.

Regards
Pär

Rim
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Re: MS matris

Post by Rim » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:41 am

Right, I understand, but if 3 and 4 are sent to a bus, you no longer hear them. In other words, when you send a channel to a bus, it is not sent to L/R anymore. Maybe I'm not quite understanding your exact set up. A detailed signal diagram of the Auria channels you have set up might help.

Rim

Fridberg
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Re: MS matris

Post by Fridberg » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:25 am

Ok, now I think how it works! To be sure, if I send channel 3 and 4 via bus 1 to channel 5 and 6 I will only hear 5 and 6 in the mix? And I use the faders on channel 3and 4 to decide how much signal there will be on 5 and 6?

Regards
Pär

Auratech
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Re: MS matris

Post by Auratech » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:27 am

Your first app is M/S Processor ios app (Inter Audio, Audio bus).
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/m-s-pro ... 79744?mt=8
My Zoom-H6 has also M-S mic and this app works fine in Auria.
The other is Stereo Designer - Stereo Shaper and Mid/Side Processor(Inter Audio, Audio bus)
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stereo- ... 54067?mt=8
You can use only one instance same Inter-app audio fx at the same time.

Integrated optional VST plugin ProQ2 has switchable M/S mode and switchable phase reverse mode.
You can use so many instances as you please. On every channel insert, aux, bus...
You can make well working 4 channel Blumlein "MS matrix".
..DS60 is fine and cute one.. :)
(I am a bit envious)
My rover Studio: iPad Air2-64Gb, Auria, Zoom H6, 2xRode Nt1, 2x Rode Nt55,
DT-770PRO, XMS-disc-(Jecklin), Ruinvo-panasonic USB Power pack,
Home: Rebuilt BEAG Hec45 Active Studio Monitors, i7-PC-Samplitude, IK-Multimedia ARC-2

Rim
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Re: MS matris

Post by Rim » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:12 am

@Fridberg, yes, that's exactly how it works. You will only hear 5 and 6.

Rim

pjackman
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Re: MS matris

Post by pjackman » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:53 pm

Auratech wrote:Integrated optional VST plugin ProQ2 has switchable M/S mode and switchable phase reverse mode.
You can use so many instances as you please. On every channel insert, aux, bus...
You can make well working 4 channel Blumlein "MS matrix".
Auratech, can you offer some insight into how I would use ProQ2 as an M/S Processor. For example, from an M/S mic pair I have the cardioid on track 1 and the figure-eight on track 2. How do I use the ProQ2 plugin to blend these two mono tracks into a stereo image? I purchased the plugin today for this purpose but I can't figure out how to accomplish the task. Thanks for any help!

pjackman
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Re: MS matris

Post by pjackman » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:56 am

For those who might be tempted to purchase ProQ2 as an M/S Processor based on comments in this thread, I received the following in an email from FabFilter Software Instruments.
Maarten de Boer wrote:While Pro-Q2 does indeed offer the option to process M/S, it does not decode your Microphone signals.
Pro-Q2 does offer some amazing features but M/S Decoding is not one of them.

To accomplish M/S Decoding in Auria try the following:
1. Pan the cardiod track to centre.
2. Copy the figure 8 track to a new track and time-align it with the original.
3. Pan the original figure 8 track to full left.
4. Pan the copied figure 8 track to full right.
5. Open the FX window on one of the figure 8 tracks and click the Phase button.
6. Bring all three faders up to 0.

Adjust the balance of Mid (cardiod) and Side (figure8) by increasing/decreasing the Mid track and/or by increasing/decreasing the Side track pair. This is a $0.00 solution to M/S Decoding.

Auria Pro would likely provide a buss-based method to eliminate the need for the copying operation in step 2 but I don't have the Pro version to confirm this.

Patrick.

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-ki
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MS Matrix for combined mono microphone recordings

Post by -ki » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:26 pm

MS Matrix using busses.jpg
MS Matrix using busses in Auria Pro
  • Mono track 1 with cardoid center mic, Route track 1 to Bus 3
  • Mono track 2 with figure 8 mic, Route track 2 to Bus 1 and Bus 2
  • Mono track 3: Input from Bus 1, output to Bus 3, pan to the left
  • Mono track 4: Input from Bus 2, output to Bus 3, pan to right, invert phase in Channel Strip
  • Stereo track 5: Input from Bus 3 , output to master (standard)
On the output track 5 you can insert the Pro Q 2 FX and so mid/side equing of the resulting stereo - or do normal L/R equing :D

I tested this setup with with files from Recording Secrets For The Small Studio and Universal Audio Mid-Side (MS) Mic Recording Basics . I even compared their result files, the mixdown of track 5 was sample-identical except for a very short, fixed track offset, probably due to the bussing.

Thanks @Fridberg for bringing up this topic. I don't have multiple microphones with different characteristics nor do i record acoustic instruments - so i've learned and practiced something new today :D
Last edited by -ki on Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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-ki
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MS Matrix for combined mono microphone recordings

Post by -ki » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:08 am

@pjackman
Using you 'copy figure 8 to a second mono audio track' approach in Auria (non-Pro), i came up with a solution that allows to add insert FX, having a single fader for the resulting stereo mix and that links the volumes of the panned figure-8 channels to keep them at the correct balance.

Just route your three channels to a Subgroup and link the faders :)
MS Matrix using Subgroup in Auria (Non-Pro).jpg
MS Matrix using Subgroup and linked Faders in Auria (non-Pro)
The extended MS-Matrix setup instructions for Auria (non-Pro) are:
  • Mono Track 1 with cardoid center mic, routed to Sub 1
  • Mono Track 2 with figure 8 mic audio, routed to Sub 1, panned left
  • Mono Track 3 with copy of figure-8 mic audio, routed to Sub 1, panned right, phase inverted
  • Using the fader group function of Auria, link faders for track 2 and 3
  • Sub 1 is the MS-Matrix stereo sum output. One can insert FX for this stereo signal and the Sub 1 fader controls the overall volume.
The fader of track 1 and 2 now controls the stereo balance, the fader of track 3 is adjusted automatically. The fader of Subgroup 1 allows for volume control (and automation) of the ms-combined stereo signal.

Compared to the initial approach of 'routing of the three tracks to the L/R master' ,this solution also allows applying insert FX and using aux-sends to the combined stereo signal.

BTW: After naming Sub 1 as 'MS Matrix', the new name was used in the output-selection list - nice 8)



A trick to get a 'sample aligned copy of the figure-8 mic mono audio' is to:
  • Set the grid mode to 'Event'
  • Move the playhead near the start of the figure-8 audio region. You will notice that the playhead 'snaps' to the start of the region.
  • Select the figure-8 audio region and press the 'Copy' button
  • Select the Figure-8 destination track and press the 'Paste' button
How to sample-accurat copy a region.jpg
How to sample-accurat copy a region

pjackman
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Re: MS matris

Post by pjackman » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:00 pm

Thanks for these great tips -ki! They offer Auria non-Pro users a quick and efficient methods for working with M/S recordings. I will be using all of your suggestions on my next M/S mix. The time you have put into this is much appreciated!

Patrick.

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