Latency problem.

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James247
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Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

Hello,

I bought Auria today and it looks great. I'm quite experienced with this sort of studio, having used Cubase for years, but this is my first time with Apple (other than watching Pro-Tools used by others). However, Auria isn't working. I'm running a year old iPod air with a Focusrite 18i8.

Having imported 4 wavs, when trying to record a vocal on top, I'm getting latency. I haven't experienced latency since 2002 (!) with Cubase so was rather annoyed to be revisited by this old enemy. By searching this forum and trying a dozen different combinations, I eventually got the latency down so I sounded like C3PO rather than a man with a digital delay, but it's not good enough, really. I don't want to sound like C3PO.

Has anyone found an answer to this latency issue? Am I (hopefully) missing something very obvious?

Thanks in advance,

James

Rim
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Rim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:40 pm

Welcome James,

iPads are able to get down to a latency of 128 samples, which is quite good. But it's not quite 32 or 16, which is possible on some desktop systems. Have you set your record latency to 128 in Auria's settings page? Also, typically, you would monitor directly through your audio interface, avoiding latency altogether. Can you tell us a bit about your exact recording setup (how many tracks are you recording, are you monitoring with effects, etc.)

Thanks,
Rim

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:40 am

Hi there, thanks for the reply.

I have experimented with the latency, the Audiobus etc, I have closed all background apps, I have turned off wi-fi. I loaded in four tracks and they are running without any effects whatsoever (not even panned). I am attempting to add one vocal to it, running through a 18i8. I'm monitoring through that same 18i8.

I should say, that Cubasis has worked fine for me this past year, no latency at all. I'm looking for a more tactile interface, hence the (maybe) change to Auria.

This project is running at 44.1 but I've also tried the two higher settings and it was just as bad.

Currently record latency is at 128. What else? iPad running iOS 9.1

When you say "Also, typically, you would monitor directly through your audio interface, avoiding latency altogether" do you mean the 18i8?

Thanks again,

James

Rim
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Rim » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:59 am

Closing background apps, turning off wifi, etc have no impact on latency. Those only affect the CPU usage once you start using a lot of effects.

If you're monitoring directly from your 18i8, there should be no latency whatsoever, since all the monitoring is done on the 18i8, not on the iPad, so this bypasses Auria altogether when monitoring. Are you remembering to turn down the fader completely on Auria's mixer when you're recording? If you don't do this, you'll be monitoring from both the 18i8 and Auria at the same time.

Rim

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:44 am

Hi again,

Ok, so if I turn the fader down, I no longer get the delay / C3PO effect but the vocal is being recorded with the same delay (although I am only hearing one vocal and not the dual sound of the delay, the vocal I am hearing is delayed, i.e. a split second after I sang it. I've tried this with clicks / vocals etc and it's quite obvious.)

So the latency is still there and also - should I really have to turn the fader down when recording? That seems a little primitive? It doesn't make the playback very handy if I have to go back and turn the fader up after every recording effort. Surely that can't be the default way of recording?

I get the feeling (and hope) I may be missing something obvious here...

Rim
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Rim » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:54 am

James,

All DAWs work this way. Before starting a recording, you need to decide whether you want to monitor directly through your interface, or monitor using the app. If you monitor using the interface, then you turn down that channel in the app, and if you decide to monitor from the app, you turn down the interface's monitor control. You don't want to monitor from two different places at once ;)

All interfaces create latency, and there's no way to avoid that fact. However modern DAWs like Auria compensate for that by moving the recorded audio forward or back in time to adjust for the latency after recording (this is done internally, so you don't actually see tracks moving, etc). Of course, none of this is possible during recording itself because you can't cheat physics, but it's done afterwards, so all your tracks should be lined up perfectly with each other after the recording. Where are you hearing the delay during playback? i.e. how do you know it's out of time?

Maybe if you described your exact recording process, we can help further, step by step.

Rim

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:24 am

Hi again.

Ok - So I've uploaded four mono tracks into Auria via Dropbox then attempted to record a vocal straight away with the settings that Auria came with. I am going through an 18i8.

Straightaway I had latency issues, with the vocal giving me a delay.

I searched through this forum and tried a dozen different things trying to get rid of the delay and the closest I got to was changing the delay to a C3PO impersonator. Better, just, but still a delay.

I repeated the same process with Cubasis and it worked straightaway, no latency (I know the obvious thing to say here is - why don't I just carry on using Cubasis? But I have my reasons for wanting to leave Cubasis, I find it cumbersome to operate and tricky to mix delicately with).

You say - " If you monitor using the interface, then you turn down that channel in the app, and if you decide to monitor from the app, you turn down the interface's monitor control."

Where is this control in the app? I'd happily turn either of them down. I've looked throughout and cannot find anything either obvious or hidden.

"Where are you hearing the delay during playback? i.e. how do you know it's out of time?" The vocal is occurring a split second after I sang it. I've tried this with singing, with counting 1-2-3-4 and with hitting two sticks together on the beat. I am definitely hearing the lag. With Cubasis, there is no lag. This delay is very audible when I'm singing it also - my voice is coming back out of the headphones after I sing it - as if I have a delay on it.

"Maybe if you described your exact recording process, we can help further, step by step."

That would be great. What further information do you need other than what I've already said?

Thanks for your efforts, much appreciated.

Rim
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Rim » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:06 pm

Thanks for the additional details. Cubasis and Auria work the same way in terms of recording. If you're hearing more of a delay in your voice when recording in Auria, it's quite possible you have your record latency settings in Auria set higher than what you were using in Cubasis. Let's take this step by step, to make sure we're on the same page. Don't try to use the existing project for these tests - it's important you start from scratch, so we know we're doing the same thing:

Method 1 (software monitoring):
1. Create a new project in Auria.
2. Add a new mono track
3. Go to Auria's settings page and make sure the Record Latency setting is set to 128.
4. On your 18i8, turn the Monitor knob all the way down.
5. Record enable the track, then press record and play.

Do you hear any noticeable latency this time?

If you still need lower latency, then let's try the same thing, but using hardware monitoring this time. It's unlikely you'll need to do this, but this is the way to ensure there is zero latency:

Method 2 (hardware monitoring):
1. Create a new project in Auria.
2. Add a new mono track
3. Go to Auria's settings page and make sure the Record Latency setting is set to 128.
4. On your 18i8, turn the Monitor knob up to a level you feel comfortable with.
5. Turn the fader for the track you're recording all the way down.
6. Record enable the track, then press record and play.
7. After you're done recording, turn the fader back up again.


BTW, we've written an excellent manual that covers all of this, and it's available on our web site. Also, for some basic tutorials on how to use Auria, I recommend the Lynda.com tutorials. They are very thorough and cover all the basics, including recording.


Rim

Morgan
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Morgan » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:13 pm

James, I have exactly the same setup using the 18i8 and don't have latency problems. I also use Cubasis occasionally. When I get a mo I will try and detail my setup.

Trevor

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:04 am

HI there, thanks for these -

Method 1 (software monitoring):
1. Create a new project in Auria.
2. Add a new mono track
3. Go to Auria's settings page and make sure the Record Latency setting is set to 128.
4. On your 18i8, turn the Monitor knob all the way down.
5. Record enable the track, then press record and play.

Do you hear any noticeable latency this time?

**Yes, not massive, but still the same old C3P0 effect.


Method 2 (hardware monitoring):
1. Create a new project in Auria.
2. Add a new mono track
3. Go to Auria's settings page and make sure the Record Latency setting is set to 128.
4. On your 18i8, turn the Monitor knob up to a level you feel comfortable with.
5. Turn the fader for the track you're recording all the way down.
6. Record enable the track, then press record and play.
7. After you're done recording, turn the fader back up again.

** Yes. Still there. I can't hear it when I record as I'm not monitoring what's actually going down, but when I play it back the delay is noticeably there and also - should I really have to turn the volume down just to record? I've never encountered that before - from a mixing / listening back perspective that's an awful and fiddly idea. BTW I've also tried this with headphones where it is far more noticeable.



BTW, we've written an excellent manual that covers all of this, and it's available on our web site. Also, for some basic tutorials on how to use Auria, I recommend the Lynda.com tutorials. They are very thorough and cover all the basics, including recording.

** Hmm. Yes, perhaps I am missing something super obvious, but at the moment it seems more likely that Auria simply isn't working with my very basic and I suspect very common set-up. I've just checked my Cubasis Hardware Latency and it's set to 512 yet working fine (I set it to 128 and rebooted the iPad and then tried the Auria again and the delay is still there - in fact it made the whole thing worse). Thanks for all your help here, I've really appreciated it but I reckon Auria is just not working for me. Something that requires this much effort just to get it to perform it's most simple and basic task (recording one track) is sadly just a waste of my time. I've had a look at the Lynda.com preview tutorial but I can do all that stuff, I've been doing it professionally for almost two decades on different platforms. What I can't do is get Auria to record on my iPad without latency issues.

** What I may attempt to do is mix some tracks I've recorded on Cubasis using Auria. If I can discover a relatively easy way of transferring the files I may yet salvage something from all this. Thanks again for all your help, shame we can't get it to work.

** One final thought - whilst changing Cubasis to 128 and then rebooting and trying Auria again, Auria was actually far worse - distorting, jumping, that sort of thing. So perhaps the two apps are interfering with each other in some other ways. At the mo' though Cubasis works straight from the box and Auria has been two days of frustration so I know which one I'll keep.

** Thanks again for your efforts - James

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:06 am

Morgan wrote:James, I have exactly the same setup using the 18i8 and don't have latency problems. I also use Cubasis occasionally. When I get a mo I will try and detail my setup.

Trevor
Ok, thanks Trevor. What iPad are you using? Also, do you ever transfer files recorded with Cubasis to be mixed with Auria and if so, how is the best way you've found to transfer them?

Frustrating business this. Anyway, back to Cubasis for now.

Auratech
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Auratech » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:36 am

C3PO sound is phase shifted two identical sounds to 1-8ms. (male vocal)
Less than 1 ms audible as colored (dull)sound. More than 10ms sound as delay.
Even 16 samples produce 0.33 ms delay (48kHz). It is audible.
You have monitoring issue, not latency problem..
My rover Studio: iPad Air2-64Gb, Auria, Zoom H6, 2xRode Nt1, 2x Rode Nt55,
DT-770PRO, XMS-disc-(Jecklin), Ruinvo-panasonic USB Power pack,
Home: Rebuilt BEAG Hec45 Active Studio Monitors, i7-PC-Samplitude, IK-Multimedia ARC-2

James247
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by James247 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:44 am

Auratech wrote:C3PO sound is phase shifted two identical sounds to 1-8ms. (male vocal)
Less than 1 ms audible as colored (dull)sound. More than 10ms sound as delay.
Even 16 samples produce 0.33 ms delay (48kHz). It is audible.
You have monitoring issue, not latency problem..
Hmm. Ok. At first, before making any changes, the issue was more like a delay than a C3PO, but upon adjusting the settings I felt I'd bought it into line not completely, but enough to reduce the delay so it was just a C3PO.

Crucially, at first, the C3PO sound was not there. It only occurred when trying to remove the delay sound...

Washboy
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Washboy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:30 am

James247 wrote:...but upon adjusting the settings I felt I'd bought it into line...
Do you remember what sort of changes you made to "the settings"? If so, it might help diagnosis if you can give some detail.

Auratech
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Re: Latency problem.

Post by Auratech » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:22 pm

You must set up, prepare your Saffire 1818 first with mixcontroll app to set the DAW tracking preset and than connect ipad and Auria.
My rover Studio: iPad Air2-64Gb, Auria, Zoom H6, 2xRode Nt1, 2x Rode Nt55,
DT-770PRO, XMS-disc-(Jecklin), Ruinvo-panasonic USB Power pack,
Home: Rebuilt BEAG Hec45 Active Studio Monitors, i7-PC-Samplitude, IK-Multimedia ARC-2

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