Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

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timmyg
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Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by timmyg » Mon May 11, 2015 3:54 am

I have a vocal that needs De-essing but the sibilance gets worse when reverb is applied (a common problem).

I currently have reverb dialled in on an Aux return and Pro-DS as the only plug-in directly on the Vocal channel. The reverb is set to around half way on the Aux knob.

What order is it best to place reverb & Pro-DS? If I send all vocal tracks to a Sub-Group can they share the same Pro-Ds and Aux reverb?

Finally, do I need to change Pre or Post fader for the Aux to place Pro-Ds after it in the chain?...not sure what I'm doing in regard to Pre or Post fader.

cheers

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mtingle
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by mtingle » Mon May 11, 2015 3:59 am

AUX's work pre-plugin's and pre-channel strip so the reverb would always be applied to the untreated audio.

You'd need to send all your vocals to a subgroup then add the de-esser plugin then add the reverb plugin. You wont be able to use an AUX channel for the reverb.

I believe that Auria-pro when it comes out will be able to do this.

instinctive
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by instinctive » Mon May 11, 2015 4:45 am

Hell no, you can't de-ess multiple vocals at once with a single de-esser plugin, that's absolutely blasphemic.

Finally, it would also be a disaster if Auria sent the signals pre-channelstrip to the auxes, I hope that's not true!

timmyg
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by timmyg » Mon May 11, 2015 4:50 am

Great thanks, that's good to know.

On the Sub-Group, would the De-esser need to appear at the top of the list and the reverb below it, or vice-versa?

Also, if the Aux's are pre-plugin & pre-channel like you say, if the De-Esser is applied to the channel strip, that De-Ess is after the reverb...is this correct?

timmyg
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by timmyg » Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 am

Confused here now with those two different answers! Sounds like RIM might be the guy to help here

instinctive
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by instinctive » Mon May 11, 2015 4:59 am

You cannot use a single de-esser on multiple (mixed) vocal tracks, as it is essentially a compressor and... well... you can't run multiple tracks through a compressor either, except for mastering. If one of the vocal tracks says "sssss" and the other says "eeee" at the same time, the "sssss" from one track will pull down the "eeee" from the other as well, that's not how it's intended to work. You need a seperate de-esser plugin for every vocal track.

About the other thing, I'm almost 100% sure that Auria's Aux sends are post-FX and post-EQ like in any other DAW, but I can't test right now.

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richardyot
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by richardyot » Mon May 11, 2015 5:11 am

The Aux sends are post channel strips and inserts - they have to be or freezing tracks wouldn't work correctly. If you freeze a track that bakes the channel strip and insert effects, but you can still vary the Aux send level, ergo the Aux is applied after them.

I think the order is: Channel Strip (PSP Expander, EQ and Compressor) --> Inserts --> Aux.

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mtingle
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by mtingle » Mon May 11, 2015 5:25 am

instinctive wrote:Hell no, you can't de-ess multiple vocals at once with a single de-esser plugin
he only says he's using multiple tracks for vocs not that there are multiple voices at once. I often use many tracks for a single vocal and comp them all to a sub-group.

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mtingle
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by mtingle » Mon May 11, 2015 5:27 am

the AUX's are pre-everything. pre-channel strip, pre-plugins, pre-subgroup routing.

It's not what I would refer, but it is how it is.

timmyg
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by timmyg » Mon May 11, 2015 6:15 am

richardyot wrote:The Aux sends are post channel strips and inserts - they have to be or freezing tracks wouldn't work correctly. If you freeze a track that bakes the channel strip and insert effects, but you can still vary the Aux send level, ergo the Aux is applied after them.

I think the order is: Channel Strip (PSP Expander, EQ and Compressor) --> Inserts --> Aux.
So the only way to De-ess after reverb being applied to the vocal would be to not use an Aux at all, but to place reverb after the De-esser in the channel strip...Is that above it or below it?

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richardyot
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by richardyot » Mon May 11, 2015 7:05 am

mtingle wrote:the AUX's are pre-everything. pre-channel strip, pre-plugins, pre-subgroup routing.

It's not what I would refer, but it is how it is.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but that really doesn't seem to be the case.

I did a simple test: in a new project I recorded a few hand claps, then I used Drumagog as an insert to replace the hand claps with a bass drum.

I then added a PSP echo as an AUX, by your logic the echo would have fed from the hand claps instead of the bass drum sound, but in fact it was the bass drum that fed into the echo.

So surely this means that the Aux is after the insert in the signal chain?

instinctive
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by instinctive » Mon May 11, 2015 8:48 am

To give a final answer to the OP:

- your setup is perfectly fine. Put a de-esser as an insert into every vocal track that needs one, preferably BEFORE any EQ
- the reverb, if added via an aux send, has no influence on the de-essing whatsoever, and auxes are always the preferred way to get effects that just "add" to a signal, but do not change the signal itself (reverbs, echoes etc.)
- the aux sends are post-inserts, period. So yes, it's your already de-essed signal that gets reverberated, which is what you want.
- de-essing a reverberated vocal doesn't work, neither does de-essing a mix of several vocal tracks with a single de-esser. So, putting a de-esser on a group channel doesn't make sense either.

Thanks, I'm done :mrgreen:

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martygras
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by martygras » Mon May 11, 2015 10:01 am

Boy this is a great thread.
De-essing is one of the first things you should do after tracking the vocals.

After tracking, you need to listen to the vocal track (analyze it with your ears) to see what the track needs to be cleaned up a little, before looking into creative effects.

Remove plosives, sibilance and unwanted breath noises and mouth clicks.
If necessary, cut out areas in the waveform between the wanted vocals so that compressors don't increase the volume of any background noise, like when your neighbor mows his lawn during recording sessions.
Marty Schulte [I'm a drummer. So, there's that.]
iPad AIR(128), Akai EIE, Akai EWI USB, illudium q-36 explosive space modulator
Head First Audio (live sound for Southern Oregon, USA)

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mtingle
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by mtingle » Mon May 11, 2015 11:46 am

try adding a kick drum to a track, now add an eq and remove all the bass frequencies leaving it tinny. now turn up a reverb on an AUX channel and hear the return of all the bass through the AUX channel. This can only be achieved if the AUX's are pre-insets.

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richardyot
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Re: Pro-DS...Before or after reverb

Post by richardyot » Mon May 11, 2015 3:03 pm

mtingle wrote:try adding a kick drum to a track, now add an eq and remove all the bass frequencies leaving it tinny. now turn up a reverb on an AUX channel and hear the return of all the bass through the AUX channel. This can only be achieved if the AUX's are pre-insets.
Just done that exact test: kick drum filtered to remove all the low end and then a reverb in the Aux send, the sound is exactly as it should be. There is no question about it, the Aux is after the inserts, in fact the signal chain is explained in the manual, on page 40.

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