apogee mic, monitoring through ipad headphone jack?

[markush2628]

Hello,

I'm considering buying an apogee mic for use with auria on my ipad 2. My question is this: the apogee doesn't have a headphone output of its own, so I would have to monitor my audio through the ipad's own headphone jack while using the usb mic. Now, I remember when using my Samson meteor mic with auria (before it broke down), auria gave me a warning message when plugging the headphones in - something about latency and the possibility of clipping.

I know that auria lists the apogee mic as compatible, but does that mean also that using headphones through ipad's own headphone-jack will work flawlessly (or close to), or am I only meant to use the apogee through another audio interface with its own headphone output?

I did a search for this on the forum, but couldn't find an answer to this specifically. I really would like to know for sure before I invest in the apogee, since it's not completely cheap, and I'm a beginner in recording.

Thanks in advance for any help!
Sincerely,
Markus

[markush2628]

(at this point, I am not interested in purchasing any audio interface. i wish to keep my setup as simplistic as possible, with only the ipad and a mic)

[dominicperry]

The iMic (or whatever they ended up calling it) requires that you use the iPad/iPhone headphone socket to monitor.( You cannot connect it to an external interface). I haven't tried one but there's no reason to think it wouldn't work with Auria, as it clearly works like that with other iPad apps. However, you will be forced to deal with the latency issue. I personally find that a problem, even with MT DAW, which can go down to a 64 sample buffer. It's certainly a problem with Auria which can only go to a 128 sample buffer. YMMV.

The only way to avoid the latency is to buy an interface with analog monitoring built in or a mic with an interface built in (e.g. Blue Spark Digital). Not all of these are created equal - it's nice to be able to control the level (in the cans) of the software playback (the existing recorded tracks) and the level of the mic separately from each other and alter the gain of the mic separate from the headphone level. Not easy, and not achieved by the Blue Spark Digital (which I have).

In my opinion, it's one of the biggest drawbacks of using the iPad to make music - the lack of good interfaces. The Sound Devices USBPre2 is a good candidate but is not only very expensive, but requires a powered USB hub to run. It becomes quite a large and cumbersome setup.

Dominic

[Erik dP]

...Or you could consider the Apogee One which has a built in mic + headphone/line output, as well as an optional 48V mic input and an instrument/line input. It requires a USB hub to work. It also needs Garage Band for switching between the inputs. But if you have it set up for the internal mic you don't need to open GB.

[dominicperry]

...Or you could consider the Apogee One which has a built in mic + headphone/line output, as well as an optional 48V mic input and an instrument/line input. It requires a USB hub to work. It also needs Garage Band for switching between the inputs. But if you have it set up for the internal mic you don't need to open GB.

Erik, does the Apogee One support zero latency monitoring (through it's internal digital mixer) when used with the iPad? I doubt it, because it's controlled by a software app in MacOS, but I guess it might. If it doesn't, it still presents you with the 'latency problem' which the OP will get with an iMiC. And it's much more clumsy with a powered hub then an iMic.

Dominic

[Erik dP]

You are probably right as I can turn on e.g. the reverb while singing. Mackie Blackjack seems (claims?) to have direct monitoring (bulkier!).

[markush2628]

how big of an issue, though, is the latency really for a beginner like me? I mean, I'm not recording more than one track at a time, and not making any really complex projects either...

[Erik dP]

I'm a beginner too. Whatever latency there is, I guess some added on comfort-echo will wash away. At least I like some feedback echo when I'm singing. The Apogee One works fine, unless I'm not sensitive enough.

[dominicperry]

Depends on the individual really. Singers in particular, tend to have a problem with latency of any sort. If you're a singer, you're used to the sound from your mouth reaching your ears in less than 1 ms (sound travels about 1 foot in 1 ms). With cans on, you only have the internal conduction of your head to rely on, and if the noise of your singing is arriving 5 or 10 ms later in the headphones, it can be distracting. You don't necessarily hear it as delay, but it affects your performance. Singers tend to correct/vary pitch in a very instinctive and subtle way and that can be thrown by unexpected delays in hearing what you are singing. Guitarists often have less of a problem because they are used to hearing the sound of their playing from an amp 5 - 10 feet away, so 5 -10 ms latency is usual and another 5-10 ms may not disturn them. Also, fast scales and solos are often played from muscle memory, not as a direct response to what is being heard/played, and so quick passages are already 'conceived' in the mind of the player. Tiny audible delay doesn't stop that from being possible. At the far end of the spectrum, church/cathedral organists have learnt to play with varying delay depending upon the manual/stop they are using. The lowest pedal stops can take a whole second to speak and for the sound to reach the organ loft. So adapting to the delay (which in many cases is simply ignoring the sound in the ears and playing the sound in the head) is second nature.
Drummers are the next most likely haters of latency, after singers, because they are highly tunes to the nuances of rhythm and that's all they are concentrating on.

Personally, I don't have very good rhythm, and so any delay is a big nuisance for me. I can hear the difference (in headphones) between an analog monitoring path and the supposed 'zero latency' monitoring on an Echo Audiofire or Apogee One interface, which is actually a digital loopback, and means that the sound has been converted from A/D and then back through D/A. The conversion takes a different time, depending upon the design of the interface. Specs are hard to come by, but 1ms each way is not uncommon. Again, it's not perceived as delay - the analog path sounds just like I'm listening to my own voice without cans (even though I;m actually wearing them) and the digital one sounds like I'm listening to myself in headphones. I can deal with that, although I prefer the analog approach. I can't however track vocals or solo guitar with software monitoring, even with 32 sample buffers on a fast PC/Mac.

So, I don't think being a beginner is really the question, the question is whether it bothers you or not. If you're a great player/singer and play what's in your head, you may not have a problem at all (see Glenn Gould practising while his landlady vacuumed). If you need the audio feedback, you might find it to be an issue. You can always try using the iPad built in mic and the software monitoring through Auria out of the iPad headphone socket. That will have very similar latency as the iMic (the difference being the A/D conversion times of the iMic versus the internal mic - they're probably very similar) Most of the delay will be the buffers inside Auria.

Dominic

[dominicperry]

Depends on the individual really. Singers in particular, tend to have a problem with latency of any sort. If you're a singer, you're used to the sound from your mouth reaching your ears in less than 1 ms (sound travels about 1 foot in 1 ms). With cans on, you only have the internal conduction of your head to rely on, and if the noise of your singing is arriving 5 or 10 ms later in the headphones, it can be distracting. You don't necessarily hear it as delay, but it affects your performance. Singers tend to correct/vary pitch in a very instinctive and subtle way and that can be thrown by unexpected delays in hearing what you are singing. Guitarists often have less of a problem because they are used to hearing the sound of their playing from an amp 5 - 10 feet away, so 5 -10 ms latency is usual and another 5-10 ms may not disturb them. Also, fast scales and solos are often played from muscle memory, not as a direct response to what is being heard/played, and so quick passages are already 'conceived' in the mind of the player. Tiny audible delay doesn't stop that from being possible. At the far end of the spectrum, church/cathedral organists have learnt to play with varying delay depending upon the manual/stop they are using. The lowest pedal stops can take a whole second to speak and for the sound to reach the organ loft. So adapting to the delay (which in many cases is simply ignoring the sound in the ears and playing the sound in the head) is second nature.
Drummers are the next most likely haters of latency, after singers, because they are highly tuned to the nuances of rhythm and that's all they are concentrating on.

Personally, I don't have very good rhythm, and so any delay is a big nuisance for me. I can hear the difference (in headphones) between an analog monitoring path and the supposed 'zero latency' monitoring on an Echo Audiofire or Apogee One interface, which is actually a digital loopback, and means that the sound has been converted from A/D and then back through D/A. The conversion differing times, depending upon the design of the interface. Specs are hard to come by, but 1ms each way is not uncommon. Again, it's not perceived as delay - the analog path sounds just like I'm listening to my own voice without cans (even though I;m actually wearing them) and the digital one sounds like I'm listening to myself in headphones. I can deal with that, although I prefer the analog approach. I can't however track vocals or solo guitar with software monitoring, even with 32 sample buffers on a fast PC/Mac.

So, I don't think being a beginner is really the question, the question is whether it bothers you or not. If you're a great player/singer and play what's in your head, you may not have a problem at all (see Glenn Gould practising while his landlady vacuumed). If you need the audio feedback, you might find it to be an issue. You can always try using the iPad built in mic and the software monitoring through Auria out of the iPad headphone socket. That will have very similar latency as the iMic (the difference being the A/D conversion times of the iMic versus the internal mic - they're probably very similar) Most of the delay will be the buffers inside Auria.

Dominic

[Turtlejon]

I had the mic for a month or so, to play with. The sound was quite nice, comparable to any good low end SDC type mic. Unfortunately, even with the smallest buffer, the delay made any serious oberdub work very difficult. The convienencce and portability were awesome, though!